2010 MARDAVE RULES AT HRCCC

[Dale]

Hi Rich,

Take your point, but I was thinking of a 25t but the HPI make maybe. If the motor is better quality and the same speed then we might be able to entice peple back into the standard class. As for the Mardave GP, as its a hand out motor it could be any make.

Thanks for the feed back guys so far. The big question is if we look for a brushless/lipo combo which is equivalent to G2 we can have both racing together which is great but with people making the switch to brushless over a period when they can afford it, just like we did with TC's etc.

It seems the G2 class is a little dated now and people want the close stock feel racing, but with brushless. As the Mardave brushless is really for modified then we must now look at other systems for this class. Obvioulsy we will still promote the Mardave brushless only for modified.

I think we all need to give this thought and then hopefully if we are looking to introduce an equivalent G2 brushless we let this happen throughout next year.

As for the GP, this is something I will give thought to now.

I am going to see if Ben has a sample motor we can try.

Regards Dale

[DazLee]

Hi Everyone,

As a former Mardave driver (And champion - Twice - Thanks Dean) I thought I would add my opinion into this.......

The one cell / lipo idea is great in principal, as long as we maintain the entry level standard mardave class as an option for beginners.
I cant imagine anyone wanting to spend £300+ on their first Mardave (Kit, Radio, Brushless etc...) when a standard RTR Mardave can be purchased for around £100.

So, £300 you ask? Where does that figure come from???

The motors Dean suggested (LRP Eraser/Nosram Dragon) are the very first generation of 13.5t motors retailing at £39.99.
If you want more performance you can pay £84.99 for the new Nosram Pure Evo 13.5t - Much faster, much punchier, much more expensive but still within the rules!!
There is the same scenario with ESC's - Pay more money, get more performance.!!!! The G2 motor isn't looking quite so bad now is it!

Then there is the Lipo, the booster, and the car......by my reckoning you will be well over £300-£400 by the time you have everything.

Then there is this 12 motors a season business......If being used by a beginner I cant imagine them feeling they need a new motor once a month to have fun!!!

Sorry if it sounds as I am against this lipo / brushless idea.....I'm not, I agree totally that in some classes it is the only way to go.
But, we have tried splitting the mardaves (Standard / Mod) before and it didnt work.
Please think very carefully before changing the rules accross the board. It may drive people away from the club and discourage new members from joining.

Thanks
Daz

[stox217]

Could we also open it up to non reversable speedo's too as it would open up the choice alot more (2nd hand) to help keep the cash side of things down.

[Dale]

Hi Darren,

I really appreciate you taking time to help with this discussion.

For me Mardave seems to fall into various catagories of racer now, which is why we can see the splitting of classes reducing numbers. Initially this was a novice class, a cheap way of getting into racing. Now of course more and more want to push the boundaries and find ways of maximising the performace to ensure high level racers are attracted. With this there will always be casulties which will be the budget racer.

Now the budget racer will always struggle for performace against a big spender and the idea of the modified class and the entry level G2 worked well to ensure they had their own racing to do. I think Darrens concern is the introduction of Lipo etc will further reduce the novice support and indeed see it die a death, or worst still create yet another class and kill all of them!

Now if we all remember this very same thing happend with Touring Cars. 27t batteried cars were racing 13.5t brushless/lipo and yes the more expensive had the edge, but it allowed people to race against each other whilst people transferred at their own pace. For me, in reality this is where Mardave now needs to go. We have to find a brushless lipo combo or lipo brushed combo which can run with four cell and G2 and be about the same performace. If we remember this is what we all thought would happen with the Mardave brushless, but this then separated the car into two distinct classes.

We just need find something which means a £100 budget can race against someone who wants one motor and one battery and zero maintenance.

Regards Dale

p.s.Nick - I really think we need to encourage reverse as this removes those looking at top of the range speedo's.

[stox217]

Okay Sould we be looking at gazza's set up as that seems on the pace and beatable with a freash g2 motor

[dogpinkscot]

well loads of ideas loads of points of view 's ..all good stuff.... if i were building a mardave for the future season it would be a all singing all dancing crazy motor lipo turbo essex tuned monster dave..

but for someone who had a budget or someone who was from the totenham area of london you could build one cheap

1. you only need one 1s lipo for a saturday not three batteries there is a saving already lets say £45.00 for 1 battery

2. your car kit standard chassis no frills all in bits £40.00

3. radio gear you need it any way this is where the big money goes (you really need to spend £110.00 minimum

4. battery booster/cheap servo cheap lipo charger £85

5 sensored brushless system fusion exceed 13.5 sensored motor and speedo £80.00 thats equivelent to using 6 motors 3 cans of motor cleaner 1 bottle of comm drops and a tub of buds in a 13 meeting series

total for season =£365.00 with a shell .. give or take a few quid

a brushed second season if you got into it and felt like being competitive could start getting expensive after season 1 ..here's how you might want to discharge and equalize your new three packs of matched cells ...and then recharge them with your new protrak charger ..also you will want a new motor more often there is atleast £300.00 gone

and then there is the simple frustration we have all had after all that money spent you still had the worst motor ever and could have pushed it round faster



brusheless is the way forward but at what price ?

[Richie]

Another option might be to change the spec of the brushed motor, the current mardave unit as we all know is 25t, however tamiya do make a cheap sport version, which I don't know what the turn value is but its a lot more powerful on 4.8v, but how would it perform on a single LIPO, may be worth trying, I happen to have one, perhaps if Gazza could lend me his LIPO for a race then this could be tried, that way the cost effectiveness is retained and we have transferred to a lipo cell, which as Darren has suggested you would only need one, that would certainly be cost effective.

Alternatively a lower turn Saturn motor could be tried, if the system runs at a lower voltage I would expect motor wear and tear to be reduced accordingly because of the reduction in consumed power. If your interested Dale I would be prepared to trial something like this next year, without scoring points.

[Richie]

I must confess I agree with Nick, Gazzas kit is comparible with a new G2 motor,

I know Gazza spent the following on his system

1s LiPo £56, smart boost £25, Motor combo 13.5 with speed control £95

Total £176

Remember people Gazzas kit his only an upgrade, people can still start on the basic kit
Richard

[Richie]

Another thought further to Darrens Post, you could limit the brushless system to a combi system of maximum RRP of say £100, that would stop people buying better faster kit, well in theory anyway.

[Dale]

All good discussions here. Rich I am sure Gazza would lend you for a run or two.

I think this sounds like a plan!

Regards Dale

[WACKER 3]

As a current Mardave driver and one that has raced against the Brushless System Gary has ran, I can confirm how very impressive the set up is and how well it works. I am looking into running the 1S Lipo and 13.5T Motor class next season as it has more benefits than a G2 motor and will be more cost effective way of racing.

The 1S system is faster and more consistent than a 4 Cell Nimh with G2 Motor but if you use the 13.5T Motor with a 4 Cell Nimh then it will be much quicker and again will split a core class of racing.

I am in complete agreement that the 1S Lipo and 13.5T is definately the way forward for the class and have had many discussions with Gary and other racers about the system and we all agreed that it is the future but the only suggestion i would like to make is 2 separate championships but still have both classes racing together.

[Richie]

Before everyone jumps down my throat thinking I'm against Gazzas arrangement, I'm not, I'm likely to go the same route however, the problem is here that in these credit crunch times most new starters don't want to buy a £50 chassis with an additional £176 worth of propulsion. There only other option currently is to purchase more expensive NiMl batteries and run as the existing Mardave. In my opinion, the single cell LIPO will become more and more popular and reduce in cost accordingly, conversely the NiMl cells, of which you ideally need three, will I expect become more expensive. So I think a variation on the theme is required here, allow the Lipo but with a conventional brushed motor and esc. We just need to find a more powerful silvercan which will match a G2 performance at 3.7v.

If a match can be found, then I see no reason why this cannot be included in the rules. You have to remember the RTR class's success is based around its cost effectivness, if we loose sight of this with Mardave's I fear the class could disappear.

[Wacker1]

I'm pleased to see some Positive feedback & good debate, regarding some possible steps forward to the Mardave Class

I'm in agreement with Mark(WACKER3 ), on most of his Comments.........apart from the 2 Seperate Championship idea, as I feel that this will put Racers off from Upgrading to the New Brushless/1s Lipo Technology(which is the key factor of drawing Racers back to this Class!), therefore splitting the Competition & Diluting the Class even further!

Whatever is decided, the ONLY way it'll work, is for the Old Technology(NiMh/Brushed G2)to be FULLY intergrated with the New Technology(1s Lipo/Brushless), making it ONE Class & ONE Championship!
Whether the HRCCC Commitee, makes it clear in the Rules, that its ONE Class/Championship, which you either run NiMh/1s Lipo with a Brushed G2 Motor or 1s Lipo with a 'Sensored' 13.5T Brushless System...........this will then make them Comparible on Performance & keep the Beginner Racers happy

I really do think that NiMh Batteries will be almost impossible to get hold of, by the middle of Next Year anyway, therefore eveyone will be converted to the 1s Lipo Packs.

As for 'Limitations' to the Brushless Systems themselves, it should be ANY Speed Control that includes REVERSE(this feature then eliminates the 'Top Of The Range' Units, but still allows a wide Variation for Racers to choose from!)
13.5T Motors? Well, going from when I tried a GEN II Orion Vortex 'Sintered' & a Novak SS Pro 'Sintered', against Gazza's LRP Eraser 'Bonded' Last Year, there did'nt seem to be any Performance difference, for some reason??
The current 13.5T Motor that everyone raves about, is the GM Pro Star Wind, which is £62.99..........even if a Mardave Racer went for this, it would still work out just over £25 Cheaper than a Years Racing with a Brushed Set-up!

[Dale]

Hi Dean,

Interesting point you make - are we talking about the removal of the Mardave Modified class and making way for the return to G2 (but with a comparative brushless/lipo option)?

If so this is a big move as we are making a U turn on Mardave offering a modified system. I am not for one minute saying I disagree as in honesty listening to our membership I see where you are going as many want the return to one class which could well result in numbers growing once again.

Interesting twist on the debate and one I would value feed back on.

Regards Dale

[aw186uk]

Hello!

I have been watching this thread with interest, I'm not a Hinckly club memeber (although I did the GP this year).

At the Yorkshire Mardave club we are allowed to run the 20T Saturn motors (£9.99), which can run very well with little messing with, I have just built a Brushless V12 with the standard Maradve motor/speed controller (£90) and also put a 1S Lipo (£64 for 2 BRCA approved 4200's) in with a Novak Smart boost (£26) to make the radio work proper.

I've not given it a proper run yet but on initial shake downs at 75% speed and 50% torque the top Brushed (20T Saturn) runners seemed to go faster then my car (our track is quite small and i'm not the best driver!).

In the new year I'm going to run it against the Brushed cars in anger to see how it goes.

Wouldn't it be easier to only allow a Mardave brushless system (only with 1C Lipo) or a Brushed G2 (or maybe try the 20T Saturns) with 4 cells??

Just my thoughts!

Cheers

Happy Christmas!

Paul Wade