Retro Buggy Racing - Summer 09

[Hail Ming]

Hi Guys and Gals...

I know next summer seems a long way off, but I'm trying to drum up some support for a new buggy class that will be great fun...Retro Buggy Racing.

To set the scene, many of you from the 80s era may have fond memories of your first RC car...perhaps it was a Tamiya Hornet...do you remember the satisfaction of building your first kit, racing your mates around the park and making ramps. These cars were great because they were simple and individual.

My idea is to inject some of those memories into a new racing class, just for the old buggies...

I've already spoken to a few of you and know that some have old buggies lying around in the loft...however if you haven't, don't worry, because they are readily available at bargain prices on ebay, as are the spares and hop-ups. This is all thanks to the revival of interest in the old buggies helped by on-line clubs such as the Tamiya Club, Associated's Forum and many others. Tamiya have also rereleased a number of their classic kits with improvements.

I've got lots of ideas how we can promote this class; not only within the club, but from outside...but I need your help.

I'm interested in your views and what limitations there should be on the buggies and the running gear. The intention is to make this a low cost competitive class that is fun, fair and will promote interest in electric buggy racing. Therefore I'd like to set up an interest group to develop and manage the ideas.

If anyone is interested and would like to know more about the old buggies, contact me or visit the Tamiya Club:

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/default.asp

You'll find cars for sale, reference material, forums etc.

To get you thinking, I've attached a still and action shot of my Tamiya Frog...this is just a standard car with a 23T motor...it flies and handles very well.

Look forward to hearing for you.

Cheers

James

[WACKER 3]

Hi Ming,

I am very interested in running in the Retro series and I am looking at the new version of the Tamiya Frog, would this be acceptale to run in the series.

I have a couple of questions what are the rules going to be based on. Would they be based on standard 540 motors as per kit or would another sort of motor be considered?

What sort of Hop-Ups will be allowed?

[Gazza]

Hmm I got an old Mardave Cobra some where . . .

[warr2]

I'm interested in your views and what limitations there should be on the buggies and the running gear. The intention is to make this a low cost competitive class that is fun, fair and will promote interest in electric buggy racing. Therefore I'd like to set up an interest group to develop and manage the ideas.

Ming, - no intention of running this class but as you asked for suggestions thought I'd stick my oar in.
Some things to think about..........

How old does a car have to be to be classed retro? - You seem to be talking 80's but I know that a number of members started in the early 90's when the club started and you will find a lot more members with cars from that period.

From what I remember of 80's cars they were quite fragile and generally jumped like bricks, especially in 4wd form. - A lot of our bigger jumps would kill an old car and spares can be hard to get for old cars.

To be proper retro ( pre 90's) it should be run with a mechanical speedo in my opinion. - Others may disagree. Mechanical speedos combined with fragile transmissions and increased power from modern cells means you can't realistically consider running motors more powerful than a standard 540 with 80's cars.


Finally, if you do this you do it for the nostalgia value and a bit of a laugh.

If fair and competitive racing is your goal then this perhaps isn't the way to go.

A vintage class by its very nature is inherently unfair. If you've ever watched full size vintage racing you'll know exactly what I mean.

A car designed in 1983 just simply won't be as good as one designed several years later. - Tyres will be an issue too. - It is possible to get modern tyres and wheels to fit most cars by changing the drive hubs , but on older cars such as the frog that is quite a jump in size.

Hope that helps

[Hail Ming]

Yay, some interest in the post...thanks guys.

Mark,

The Frog is exactly the sort of buggy I'm on about...well regarded for its handling characteristics back in the day when it would put up stiff competition against the likes of the original RC10. You can buy the new and improved model as cheap as chips and parts availablility is very good. In my mind this is an ideal buggy as a base chassis. With regard to mods and running gear...I'm easy, but I'm interested in what people think. From a practical perspective, running modern gear would be easier (due to availablilty) and more likely to attract people to join in. But I'm also keen on suggesting a motor limit to level the performance for closer racing and to help safe-guard reliability.

Gary,

My original thought was to encourage buggies from the 80's era...not sure on the release date of the cobra (I think it was a 90s buggy), but I know its quite basic in construction and in the spirit of the older buggies. More to the point, Mardave have re-released the Cobra chassis, potentially making it an attractive choice.

David,

Take your point regarding when most drivers first started racing...but there is good availablity of the older models and parts. I've recently bought a good condition original RC10 runner for just £60...these things are built like tanks. Tamiya also have a number of re-released models on the market at attractive prices.

With regard to the difference in performance, I agree; the 80s was an experimental period...design features of the most successful models developed into the buggies we race today. However, even the most basic of 80s buggies can perform well with a few tweaks...I know of a chap who used to thrash everyone with a Hornet. I kinda like the thought of the 'under dog' prevailing...

My view on the running gear is that ESCs were available in the 80s (fond memories of the Speedmaster Silver Star...aka 'brick') and present a practical choice for today's racer.

Jumps...don't really think that is a problem; every tried to kill a Tamiya Hornet? Also adds an element of fun.

Thought about the wheels and tyres issue...still good availability dependent upon the buggy...However, as you say, most buggies will accept modern 2.2 wheels and tyres...in fact Tamiya manufacture an adapter just for this purpose. May look a bit out of proportion and gearing will need to be adjusted, but I think that's an example of a compromise that may be required.

My view was to get a balance between nostalgic fun and some proper racing...something that will be competitive but not too serious, make for an entertaining spectacle and encourage people to join in buggy racing.

This is good stuff...let's have more thoughts like this on the topic.

Cheers

James

[warr2]

Cobra was released 93. - Just looks old because it was very much built down to a price.

If you allow the cobra you then have to allow much more advanced cars of the time such as the losi xx and cougar 2000. Also released in 93.

Mardaves predeccessor to the Cobra the Meteor would be ok though.

And yes I have seen plenty of tamiya hornets destroyed - (I seem to recall they were pretty fragile). As well as numerous manta rays and my personal 80's weapon of choice the Tamiya Thunder Dragon.
(Started off as a Terra Scorcher but ended up downgraded a bit after a few crashes and an attempt by the dog to eat it.)

[Hail Ming]

David,

Thanks for confirming the release date of the Cobra...thought it was a 90s model.

Also note your comments regarding the Losi XX and Cougar 2000...I'd like this class to be as inclusive as possible, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere to distinguish retro buggies from modern buggies. The likes of the Losi XX and Cougar 2000 aren't that dissimilar to the modern buggy, whereas the Cobra (like the 80s Meteor) is very much in keeping with the old buggies and certainly the ethos of the class. The benefit of the Cobra is it is readily available again now Mardave have re-released it - cheap too. I'm sure Chris (Mr Mardave) would be delighted if this class could encourage sales of the Cobra...

Not suggesting the old buggies are indestructable by any means...some of them were absolute rubbish. Old buggies have there weaknesses just as the modern ones; however the difference is they're pretty easy to beef/patch up with either commercially available hop-ups (e.g. CRP) or home-made parts...that's surely part of the fun and definitely what I'd like this class to be about. I'm sure, people will decide which buggy is best for them...

Thanks again for your thoughts David...nice to see people want to explore this issue with constructive comments and suggestions. Hopefully, with everyone's input, we can develop some ideas to define what a retro buggy is and how we should run the class.

I'm interested in hearing for the youngsters...what do you think guys? Is this class something you'd like to have a go at? If so, what ideas have you got?

As attached to my original post, the Tamiya Club website is a great place to find out about the old buggies (not just Tamiya ones)...the link is:

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/default.asp

Cheers

James

[Gazza]

.

[Wacker1]

Hi all,

I'm pleased to hear that theres already a fair bit of intrest in Buggy Racing, for the 2009 Summer Season.

I do think that the 'Retro' Buggies would be good fun to see again, but personally I think that it would be a bad idea for the Club, if they ended up being in a Class of their own.........it would be far better if it was run just as a 'Buggy' Class, incorporating 2WD, 4WD & Retro Buggies. This would then be in Heats of Drivers ability, creating maximum Numbers of Racers, making Qualifying & the Drivers Championship more worthwhile(but still being fun).
The majority of Drivers run 2WD Buggies these days, but if a decent turnout of 4WD(Modern & Retro)Buggies were turning up on a weekly basis, I cant see a problem in 2 Classes being organised(2WD & 4WD).
I'm sure that there'll be a few People reading this & wondering how a Retro Buggy could compete with a Modern Buggy from today.........well they can! A perfect example was in the 2nd Round of the Midland Astro-Turf Masters at Kidderminster last month, a Guy ran an original Associated RC10(Goldtub Chassis)Team Spec 2WD Buggy from 1983, which he managed to finish 22nd out of nearly 80 Drivers!......No one could believe it!

The Club had quite a successful Buggy Season over last Summer, considering 'Off-Road' Racing was only decided/organised by the Commitee a couple of weeks before we actually had our first Meeting...........saying that though, we could have done with a few more Racers regularly turning up.
I think that theres a very high chance of alot more turning up for next years Summer Season though, as everyone now knows whats going on, so they have plenty of time to organise a Buggy

[tomjgardner]

I'm interested in racing a retro buggy next summer, but only really as a bit of fun as I would still want to race my normal car.

That said I have several old buggies that I could use and would like to suggest the following.

I think we need to keep the entry requirements for the car as broad as possible so a not to exclude people who have an old car that doesn't necessarily fit the age requirements. (after all it only a bit of fun).

As for equipment that could be used in the car, I suggest the following :

Motor should be Kit standard, where not motor was supplied with the kit I should be of 540 silver can design. (this should keep speed and costs down)

As there a likely to be a large number of brushed esc available now that most people have gone to brushless, I suggest that any brushed ESC can be used.

Any 7.2v battery can be used unless a different voltage battery is integral to the design of the car. (Im not sure as to the usage of lipos, as im not a fan of running them without the correct esc, although there is a potential cost saving there.

Likewise any radio / servo could be used.

Comments anyone??

Tom.

[Hail Ming]

Gary/Tom...you might be right about broadening the entry criteria; certainly for the first season...see how many people are interested and what buggies are popular. Any suggestions? As Tom said, this is all about having a bit of fun...hopefully it will also provide some close racing.

Using 'sliver can' 540 would be a simple way of equalizing the speed and keeping the cost down...I reckon it may also go some way towards levelling the performance differences between some early and later chassis design (i.e. chassis dynamics not so important). Silver cans are also easy to maintain...great for 'newbies' and drivers (like me) who aren't interested in skimming motors.

ESCs are cheap, relaible and convenient...Dynamite do a great little brushed speedo called the Tazer for just £26...its small, has good features and will handle anything down to a 12T. The Tamiya re-released cars also feature an ESC as standard...

Think we should embrace the revolution and allow people to run LiPos if they want. With the ESC issue in mind, pretty sure you can get voltage cut off gadget to attach to your speedo (can anyone confirm this?).

I agree...no issue with radio gear...run what you like.

Dean,

I think the retro buggies will have a positive effect on attracting both new blood and drivers back to buggy racing at HRCCC...the nostalgic element will be the Club's unique selling point; raising the profile of buggy racing as a whole. I'm sure there'll be drivers, like Tom, who are thinking about running the retro class as a second car just for a bit of fun. Tempted to run both classes myself...

Cheers

James

[Hail Ming]

Something else to wet your whistle...found a fantastic Japanese website featuring retro buggy racing.

http://www93.sakura.ne.jp/~time-tunnel/

Its all in Japanese, but the pictures are in English (just a joke)

A real inspiration for anyone wanting to race in the retro buggy class next summer.

James

[lapster]

hi there,

sounds good this retro racing, i will have ago. how about also having RTR with this class, might get the numbers up, and interest younger gen because it will be cheaper to run etc,
just a idea !

[Hail Ming]

Nice one Andy...

The rules for the class are still up for discussion, but the general consensus appears to be tending towards keeping the running gear pretty much RTR for the very reasons you've suggested.

Thanks for the input...

Anyone wondering what to spend their Christmas money on...get a retro buggy and join in the fun this summer.

James

[Hail Ming]

Hi Folks,

As the summer season is fast approaching and people are starting to think about off-road racing, I thought now would be a good time to remind everyone about the option of running a class for vintage and re-released buggies.

The intention of this class is to be for new comers/enthusiasts in the same way as the Mardave V12 class (no Mardave comments please ) and as such the running requirements will be orientated towards low cost racing.

With the above in mind there are just three simple requirements:

1) Any 2WD/4WD electric buggy up to the mid 90's era (or their re-released versions)
2) Mabuchi RS540 motors (kit supplied or G1/G2) - for cost, fairness and easy maintenance
3) 7.2V NiCd/NiHM or 7.4V LiPo cells

Please don't regard this class as an attempt to take the focus away from modern buggy racing...on the contrary, I hope the old buggies will help build interest in off-road racing. To put my money where my mouth is, I intend to run both vintage and modern buggies this summer - hopefully many of you will follow suit.

Thanks for your time...contact me if you have any questions or ideas.

James