Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Stock and Modified

Which Touring Car Class would you want ro run after Christmas (Winter 2011 season)?

10.5 with on-the-fly timing advance/turbo
0
No votes
13.5 with on-the-fly timing advance/turbo
6
32%
13.5 with NO timing advance/turbo (New BRCA class)
5
26%
17.5 with NO timing advance/turbo (New BRCA class)
8
42%
 
Total votes: 19

DerbyDan
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by DerbyDan »

Ian_Smith wrote: Richard,

This current series (which ends on Saturday) has seen almost everyone running 13.5 run NG speedos with timing advance, the 3 exceptions that I am aware of are Chris Child, Nick Halfpenny (both 13.5) and myself (17.5 - I wanted to try to promote interest in a 17.5 stock class that I was aware that the BRCA were considering introducing at their AGM, and also to try to identify how much slower it would be than the usual 13.5 both with / without timing advance). In essence I intended using 17.5 for just the first 2 weeks indoors as an experiment, but in reality found that I was not that much slower over a complete lap than those I consider to be a similar ability to myself (obviously I get slaughtered down the straights but the car control that I have at the slower speed allows me to make some of that back up in the infield) so never swapped back to the 13.5.

Racing with an under-powered car has been great fun, the only down side is getting the occasional bump at the back on the fast sections. But creating a gap then trying to hold tight lines so that the faster car behind can't get by is to be highly recommended :D

Ian
Ian - I know Nathan, who I come along with, is running non-timing advance, Craig Gibson was only using a borrowed TA speedo for a few weeks & I think Craig Nutting only moved to a Tekin from an old non-advance LRP TC spec on the penultimate week of the Autumn championship, so maybe not as many folk were running advance/turbo speedos as you would have thought. Having said that I think although those at the sharp end of the series have a 'need for speed' with people either having changed or thinking of changing to these latest ESCs. Its worth noting too, that different motors have different amounts of fixed timing advance built into them, so even if the speed controller element is regulated - different motors of the same wind give different characteristics/performance too.
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Ian_Smith
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by Ian_Smith »

Richard,

NG Speedo's are "New Generation", and allow timing to be advanced on-the-fly as the RPM of the motor picks up (or after a pre-defined time period).

I think the BRCA are looking to re-introduce a "Stock Touring / Clubman" class akin to 27t brushed, which 13.5t brushless has never been (or at least hasn't since sintered rotors and LiPo's came on the scene, and certainly hasn't since the recently introduced NG Speedos).

Hinckley are looking to adopt this 17.5t non-timing advance class as a step between the QuickSilver class we currently have and 13.5/10.5 with the all-singing and dancing speedo's. Obviously, not all motors or all speedo's are equal (and never have been), but many of the NG speedo's have a mode that doesn't advance the timing on-the-fly, and the legacy speedo's may or may not have timing pre-built in (I have a Nosram Matrix Evo ISTC, and can find no documentation anywhere that confirms (or denies) a built-in amount of timing advance). At the end of the day, the sport has lost a true Stock class, and this needs to be remedied.

I know that such a class may be awkward to effectively police, but my own view is that if someone knowingly cheats then the only person that they are truly cheating is themselves. However if two cars are going down a straight and suddenly one "finds an extra gear" then it will be noticable. :)
Schumacher Mi4LP / Hobbywing Justock / Speed Passion V3.0 17.5
"Speed is nothing without Control" - wish I had just one of 'em! :-)
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by Richie »

When you get it up and running I would love to take part Ian. Somebodys got to tell me how to get a touring car to grip though, take care Rich
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by Hail Ming »

Ian_Smith wrote:
I know that such a class may be awkward to effectively police, but my own view is that if someone knowingly cheats then the only person that they are truly cheating is themselves. However if two cars are going down a straight and suddenly one "finds an extra gear" then it will be noticable. :)
I'm sure this sounds familiar... :wink:

I'm all for a 17.5 class with no turbo gizmos or the like - Quick Silver has been popular because it offers good honest racing and this class is the ideal next step. I say make a few fair rules (based on the ROAR Clubman class) and go with it, otherwise the new season will be over before you get started.

I've got a few name suggestions for the class - how about:

"Almost Legal" - working on the '17.5 almost being 18' theme - thought I'd throw it in for a laugh.

"17.5 Clubman" or "17.5 Stock" - no marks for originality here, but fits the bill nicely.

"Club Stock" - has a nice ring to it.

"17.5 NT" - a gentle reminder of the non-timing rule.

James
Try 'Quick Silver', the Amazing Silver Can Powered Touring Car Class at HRCCC
hb-dom
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by hb-dom »

just have it as the
2011 super stock class :mrgreen:
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by Ian_Smith »

Richie wrote:When you get it up and running I would love to take part Ian. Somebodys got to tell me how to get a touring car to grip though, take care Rich
Richard,

I have no problems with grip at all, my car goes round like it's on rails :D

Front : 0.5 to 1 degree toe out, 1 degree camber
Rear : 3 degrees toe in, 1.5 degrees camber

Front springs and shock damping harder than the rear (both with about 50% rebound on the damping)

Obviously, you have to play around with other setup options too (roll centre, droop (which is a very powerful tuning option), etc), and I always run Sorex 28's (even before the club negotiated a deal with Schumacher).

James,

I think the BRCA have called the class "17.5 Clubman Stock Touring" or something like that.
Schumacher Mi4LP / Hobbywing Justock / Speed Passion V3.0 17.5
"Speed is nothing without Control" - wish I had just one of 'em! :-)
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dogpinkscot
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by dogpinkscot »

There seems to be some miss understanding on zero timing.......nick halfpenny runs a stock spec speedo on punch setting 7-8 which gives maximum timing of 38 degrees not zero as our speedos can do on the fly timing they are able to increase the timing further to around 60 deg.....i think even ian runs his 17.5 with the punch setting turned up....the zero timing is a good idea in theory but not practice as we all run speedos that can add timing ...therefore i sugest we look at not running a class of 17.5 but a series at our club using a sensible priced 17.5 zero timing motor/speedo combi ..im sure ben roger or eric could sort out some sort of club discount for all entrants with a nice trophy...
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by hb-dom »

i have been looking at a budget combo aswell and ive come across this,
http://www.modelsport.co.uk/index.php?product_id=37697
i dont think there should be only one combo alowed as some people have old stock esc's lying about still or currently still running them.
it would be a good idea to keep the class as open as possible to every one, so there is more interest in the class as its just getting up and running
dom :mrgreen:
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by Ian_Smith »

Justin,

I have run my speedo on every punch setting over the period that I've had it, if I'm honest I have not noticed any increase or decrease in top-end speed on any of the settings.

I have tried to find out if my speedo does indeed have timing advance pre-built in to no avail, only a rumour that it and some of the other older speedo's do.

If there is any pre-set timing advance, I cannot believe that the "Punch" setting adjusts the amount of it because I always thought that advancing the timing gave more RPM not torque, and punch is surely about torque. If the Punch setting does alter the timing, then it must be retarding it to increase the torque which would slow the top-end down, unless the speedo is doing on-the-fly timing advance without my knowledge - I certainly don't see any evidence as "an extra gear" as I go down the straight.

I think that the proof of the pudding will be in comparison if anyone runs 17.5 on a true zero-timing speedo - but is there such a thing available apart from the new LRP one that says it is zero timing http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/electroni ... r/details/

The only other measure I have is a comparison around Bedworth of my Mi2EC with 27t brushed against Mi4LP with my current setup, my current setup being about .5 to .75 sec quicker on a single lap. How much of this is better car, better motor/speedo, better LiPo or improvement in me is hard to tell. :mrgreen:

Either way I'm looking forward to 2011 :D
Schumacher Mi4LP / Hobbywing Justock / Speed Passion V3.0 17.5
"Speed is nothing without Control" - wish I had just one of 'em! :-)
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overson
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by overson »

If any one is intrested in a juststock 17.5t combo
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/XERUN-17-5T-Combo ... 3cb39c7b11
Fusion Hobbies.
xray 009/ 10.5
CRC XL/ 10.5
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dogpinkscot
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by dogpinkscot »

who are the 12 people at the club with true zero timing speedos from lrp ....that are recognised by the brca....makes me laugh ...i aint seen one at hinckley yet
and dont reply if you running an old stock spec speedo ...just because its from 1946 doesnt make it brca(new class) legal
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by DazLee »

Hi all,

Can I ask what speedo it is you are running please? I will try to clear up the non timing / advance timing disagreement for you.

If it is a LRP SPX Stock Spec (Nosram Matrix Evo Stock spec is the same) then punch / power settings 7 and 8 do add an amount of advance (fixed) timing.
If it is an original LRP Sphere / Nosram Matrix then these have no timing advance at all.
and finally, If its one of the new speedos LRP SXX TC Spec / Nosram Pearl, then these also have a small amount of timing advance (fixed) on the higher profiles.
I am 99% sure that the above is correct but if anyone knows any different please let me know.

We use the term 'punch setting' but in fact they are 'power profiles'........therefore increasing RPM, Current, etc.... and basically all round power!!!!

The main point of this is that unless you have one of the original 'first generation' brushless esc's or one of the latest 'zero-timing' esc's then it will have the facility to add an amount of fixed timing. And therefore increase performance.

Finally, the point made about 'zero-timing' speedos........The ETS series runs the Speed Passion Citrix which retails at around £55-£60
This is possibly an alternative to the LRP system?

Thanks
Daz
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by dogpinkscot »

matrix evo nosram =38 deg of timing on punch setting 8 call andy at pbm he will confirm this
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by Richie »

Hi Guys

I don't know where you go from here, your not controlling the esc's and you allow turbo speedos but there appears to be timing differences between most of the units. Surely a way round this is for someone to draft up a list of acceptable settings on the different esc's, and then get it agreed. This could maybe reduce some of the confusion.
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Re: Winter 2011 Series : What Classes

Post by Ian_Smith »

All,

I think the idea behind this new class is to re-introduce a Stock Class of Touring, which currently the sport lacks. I am sure that there are going to be teething issues in trying to do this, and short of having a controlled motor/speedo combination this is always going to be difficult. However in my opinion the sport needs this to happen.

All I really know from personal experience is my comparative performance around Bedworth with an Mi2EC with 27t brushed and a Core RC LiPo (20c?) against an Mi4LP with 17.5 brushless (Speed Passion UltraSportsman with fixed timing) coupled with a Nosram Matrix Evolution ISTC speedo and an Orion LiPo (40c). My best times for each are shown below :

Mi2EC (2009) : 17 laps in 316.79, best lap 17.83
Mi4LP (2010) : 17 laps in 310.46, best lap 17.31

In my opinion, there is little to choose between them indicating that my current brushless setup is probably about right, whether my speedo has pre-built in timing advance or not I do not know. I do know that around Bedworth I varied the "Punch setting" between 6, 7 and 8 and found very little between the settings (but then I'm not the best or most consistent driver out there).

Ian
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"Speed is nothing without Control" - wish I had just one of 'em! :-)
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